Turning off XP loss/gain as an option?

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

There are certainly other threads and other people that do the tongue-in-cheek response of "they should INCREASE the penalties".

I have no doubt I will be made to regret saying this, but... I can see that.

Are you sure it's tongue-in-cheek?

I think even Ruthless is more power creepy than Mr. CW would have been entirely thrilled about, and if someone says we're more powerful now so we level up faster now, and that results in the death penalty having lost some of its relevance, then... the argument isn't altogether 'out there'.

I'm not convinced the game would be better, or subjectively considered more fun by a majority of those playing it, if GGG announced this change. But if someone says they think the change is appropriate, I'd certainly be willing to hear them out. There is a logic to it.

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Sarno#0493 wrote:

Are you sure it's tongue-in-cheek?

In some cases, sure. But yes, there have been many threads such as this one below where great points FOR the increased penalties have been laid out, mostly exactly as you said: the game nowadays is far far FAR easier and faster than it ever was when the exp penalty was first implemented. Other things have adjusted up with the times, so why not the penalties for failure?

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3879798


I know I'm certainly guilty in threads over the years of making a post like "de-leveling should be a thing if you die too much", not being totally serious that it would be a good idea.


TBH, when you look at it from that broad a view, comparing 2013 PoE to 2026 PoE....the idea of reducing a death penalty (or any penalty for that matter) holds even less logical weight, as the current penalties are already far less impactful than they ever used to be. We have sooooo many more ways to avoid death now than ever before, and a far easier time recouping losses....so the lesson for NOT using or learning any of those options should be far greater

I mean....it wouldn't make sense for GGG to lower the damage and life of all monsters in the game, given that players are dealing far more damage earlier, easier, and cheaper than ever before, right?


Uncle Ben's quote is actually quite appropriate in this scenario: "with great power, comes great responsibility". In PoE, it is the player's responsibility to use the tools provided to avoid the death penalty. It isn't the death penalty's responsibility to avoid the player lol. Captain Planet: "The power....is yours"....to control if, how, and when you die.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

PoE has ALWAYS....from the very beginning....been harder and far less forgiving in certain aspects than most other arpgs.

It's such a difficult game that I can hop onto a chat channel in TFT, or Trade 820 and join any of the 100+ legion 5-way rota groups, pay em some divines that I farmed up in safe,0-risk easy content, and sit there afk as the aurabot makes sure I never die as long as I have capped chaos res, while the KB HH build explodes the screen 10 times per second while my game is running in windowed mode 800x600 to optimize fps ofc. Gaining millions of exp and completely trivializing the leveling and erasing any and all meaning in the SC Trade ladder because you can just buy lvl100 with enough divine orbs.

All meaning or sense of achievement in reaching a high level is non-existant when there are countless carry services ready for you to spend your divine orbs on to instantly cheese your way to your goal. So really the only thing exp loss does is make more profits for the legion 5-way rota exp groups lol, it just motivates more people to go into those carry services. Like myself.

I've done that, it feels oh so good to circumvent the leveling aspect of this game completely, and ignore the exp loss. It feels good to die at lvl100(or my desired level to get all important nodes) and not care about losing exp. It feels so good sometimes I just throw my character into a pack on purpose if I'm feeling extra lazy/bored just to make myself feel good about not caring about exp. That's how good it feels.

It felt so good in fact, that I would intentionally level up just before fighting quest Exarch just to intentionally fail the ball phase because I didn't feel like engaging with such a game mechanic. I was doing this before the change to pinnacle bosses not having exp loss. And I still do it, proudly , today.

Wanna know why it feels oh so good and glorious to buy my way to 100 and invalidate the exp loss on death?

Because its bad game design.

^no matter WHAT the design of the game is.....you would find a way to skip it. That's just who you are as a player. Don't pretend otherwise.

You LOVE doing challenges so much....that you pay to skip them.
You LOVE playing PoE so much....that you don't play longer than a week.
You come back league after league....while simultaneously complaining about the game on these forums each and every time
You play a game centered around grinding....and complain about the grind.
You demand the game itself bend to you and your unreasonable demands at every chance you can, with absolutely no effort or interest to use the things the game provides you to actually solve all the issues you have.


How you choose to interact with the game has absolutely nothing to do with good or bad game design: you are just a bad player with zero interest in playing the game. I bet if GGG took you up and did every single thing you have ever requested....you would still come back to this forum and complain about something new. And continue to quit playing after a shorter and shorter time.


But you know what? Even through your exceedingly limited interactions with the game, you absolutely hit the nail on the head with that one thought about carries: meaning to level 100 has been reduced because of the myriad "easy-outs" that players have access to. Those easy-outs need to be removed. You are always so so so close to making a valid and good point....only to pull a complete 180 and go the exact opposite direction.

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Sarno#0493 wrote:

In my previous post I mentioned double standards. Having just been accused of being tone-deaf, I am now the recipient of this post. The sheer unfairness of it is really quite remarkable.

Do you not read what you write? Of course it was a tone-deaf response.

Removing the death penalty doesn't affect you (do you even have a level 100?) and neither does it affect the 40/40 people, except maybe their massively inflated ego and sense of superiority. The average Joe reaching 100 by the end of the league doesn't affect anybody, but it will give them something to keep going, not discourage them.

The advocates for the death penalty just pretend it does something crucial, attributing some greater meaning to a shit, archaic mechanic. Why are you not advocating for wisdom and portal scrolls? Also a shit, archaic mechanic that has overstayed its welcome.

I mean, you cite a bunch of forum randos known for constantly stirring up shit as the backbone of your argument because they said something that reaffirmed your own stance. And you called it "receipts". If that isn't tone-deaf, I don't know what is.

This has nothing to do with disrespect on my part, I'm just disappointed with your latest responses. Like I said, you usually have better takes, so what changed?

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

All meaning or sense of achievement in reaching a high level is non-existant when there are countless carry services ready for you to spend your divine orbs on to instantly cheese your way to your goal. So really the only thing exp loss does is make more profits for the legion 5-way rota exp groups lol, it just motivates more people to go into those carry services. Like myself.

Everything in the game has exactly as much meaning to me as I want it to have. If I reach 100 by sitting afk in 5-way rotas then of course it's meaningless. If I decide to grind for it in SSF and feel good for reaching my goal in this restricted environment, then it may mean something to me. If certain hurdles on that path disappear, then it might mean less to me, because it doesn't feel like much of an achievement. There are players that think that way (I, for one) and to those players removing the exp penalty would make the game more boring because of the lack of stakes.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

The average Joe reaching 100 by the end of the league doesn't affect anybody, but it will give them something to keep going, not discourage them.

Average Joe here, and I don't feel discouraged. Usually I don't bother going for it and am content on 98, before the real grind begins. If 99 feels easy then I know I have good defenses compared to most of my other characters. It gives me perspective.

I reached 100 exactly once, all in solo play and it felt pretty good. First Scion, first CI build, first level 100. Gave me a big ol' smile.

So it's not only some elitist circle that advocates in favour of the exp penalty. I don't begrudge anyone their level 100 that they got in 5-way rotas. Go for it. If all you want is to reach 100 then there is a way to get there with minimal friction. Great! But why do you want to take away the option to take the "rocky path" for weirdos like me that enjoy it?

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Those easy-outs need to be removed.

Breachstone rotas got effectively nuked with the Breach rework.
5 way carries already got hit with a big nerf a couple of leagues ago, turning them into more of an alt leveling method for wealthy players, despite some hyping it up who clearly can’t even afford that luxury lol.

But at this point, it’s really just a matter of time until Legion gets its rework too.

Endless map sustain and the generous amount of map juice we already have are more than enough to hit 100, assuming the player is capable. So yeah, these kinds of easy-outs don’t really need to exist anymore and probably should be phased out even further.

In this league alone you just throw Breaches into juiced maps and your exp bar goes up ridiculously fast. Add in a Mirage with the exp wish, or even better a map with the Mirage implicit, and the exp gain just gets completely out of control lol.

It’s honestly been hard not to make big exp gains per hour, unless you’re running content your character can’t handle and ignoring the most obvious signs, which usually just means dying a lot.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

but it will give them something to keep going, not discourage them.

If the exp penalty feels discouraging and Average Joe isn’t motivated to improve or fix their character, which is kind of what PoE is all about then maybe, just maybe, it’s not the game that’s the issue. And it probably shouldn’t take two years for Average Joe to figure out that maybe this just isn’t what they’re looking for.

Trying to revamp and rework a system that’s been in place since forever and has worked just fine for what it was supposed to do, namely filter out terrible decision making feels a bit overkill.

Baumi,

You will lead a happier life if you are less dismissive of others' opinions, less quick to assume they have some ulterior motive, and simply try to empathise with your fellow human. (And those around you might just be happier, too.) When you accept that other people can simply value and prioritise different things, the world becomes a less hostile and arbitrary place.

There are only so many times a reasonable person can be expected to articulate how they feel and why ("Games need goals; games need things to strive for; games need decisions to feel impactful. Otherwise, what's the point?"), only to be told by some internet stranger what their true motivations allegedly are ("some folks would prefer to keep up the illusion of feeling like a superior player").

There is only so much time people who do not know you can be expected to put up with you unconstructively denigrating them as being the author of "a shit opinion". Sometimes we can all be guilty of rudeness in service of making a point - but it can seem with certain posts of yours that the rudeness is the point. Certainly, it is often what has the greatest number of sentences devoted to it.

You also said that "I mean, you cite a bunch of forum randos known for constantly stirring up shit as the backbone of your argument because they said something that reaffirmed your own stance. And you called it "receipts". If that isn't tone-deaf, I don't know what is." I agree. You do not know what tone-deaf is. In that respect, we have been here before. When you use terms without apparent regard for what they mean multiple times in one thread, it starts to seem more 'feature' than 'bug'. Once is an embarrassing oversight; twice is, at best, carelessness. You never did get back to me on what strawman argument I had constructed or how. Speaking of loose threads, you more recently failed to reply when I asked how you, in good faith, found yourself posting a caricature of my actual position. And with all due respect - if I were you, I would not rush to compare reputations with others.

At this point I think I am done responding to you, and so I would ask if - as a courtesy - you would make a best-effort attempt not to generate me additional 'you have been quoted' notifications. I, of course, have no issue with you seeking to rebut points I might make when not pinging me.

Thanks.

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twostroketom#5281 wrote:

So it's not only some elitist circle that advocates in favour of the exp penalty. I don't begrudge anyone their level 100 that they got in 5-way rotas. Go for it. If all you want is to reach 100 then there is a way to get there with minimal friction. Great! But why do you want to take away the option to take the "rocky path" for weirdos like me that enjoy it?

If its just made into an option that people can opt-into if they want to, then everybody wins. People that want exp loss can play with it on, people that hate it can just disable it. That's the most simple solution, and I have no clue why it hasn't been done yet.

PoE is all about player agency and choosing how you enjoy the content you prefer, well let the players choose instead of forcing everyone to play with exp loss then. People complain about this long enough and it will change eventually. Cuz guess what, if it doesn't change then other games will very quickly take my attention away from PoE, and that's bad for their player retention. Being able to passively get to level cap with 0 risk will let people have something to do if they're bored.

I don't care about playing a "hardcore arpg", I only care about having fun. So let SC Trade players have fun, its the easy mode anyway so literally who cares how its changed and how much easier the game is? The easier it is, the more fun it is.

And for the people that want a challenge, SSF,HC,Ruthless will always exist. So there is no excuse that will ever work against making SC Trade easier.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

If its just made into an option that people can opt-into if they want to, then everybody wins. People that want exp loss can play with it on, people that hate it can just disable it. That's the most simple solution, and I have no clue why it hasn't been done yet.

It would have to be a separate game mode, like SC/HC/SSF/Ruthless. Something you decide on character creation, with its own league/economy. Making something as fundamental as exp loss optional within the same league sounds weird to me. As of now there is nothing in the options that has an impact on game mechanics or progression. Opening that door would be a big risk imo. It's like having a 20% more damage buff you can enable in the options. Weird.

The other option - making a separate game mode - would avoid that issue. But no idea what other knock-on effects that would have and if GGG would be willing to do that.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

The easier it is, the more fun it is.

So it would be more fun if all mobs would have 1hp and would just fall over? At some point it just gets more boring as it gets easier. And that point is different for different people. Sending everyone who doesn't want an instant win, no challenge cookie clicker to HC is also not fair. There is a spectrum of how hard people want the game to be. Don't just assume everyone in SC, or even just a majority of players, shares your preference.