Turning off XP loss/gain as an option?

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

If its so important why does half the campaign not have it and work perfectly fine?

Because that part of the game is the literal tutorial mode of the game. They take the training wheels off gradually, like any other game. What an awful example. Why don't we have all the skills available at level 1? Why don't we have rare or unique gear in our stashes at the start of the game? And yet the campaign works perfectly fine.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

Why don't we just make the whole game hardcore then? And make it void your whole stash when you die too, we wouldn't want you to have too much progression now would we? Let's put durability on items too, make 1 random piece of gear break when you die. You could endlessly put in bad game mechanics and pretend like its making the game "more challenging" and "more satisfying to overcome". When that's a complete lie lmfao

The reason the exp penalty exists is because this type of penalty DOESN'T exist. GGG could have easily gone way harsher, they actually chose a very EASY death penalty by comparison to other games. A penalty has to exist, regardless of your woefully misguided opinion, and exp is the very lowest possible thing to lose, while still having meaning. That's why threads like these exist: it is an illustration of the SUCCESS of the exp penalty.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

I don't care about games trying to "teach me a lesson", I don't care about upgrading my build. I don't care. About any of it. Its my choice alone how I want to enjoy a game, the game has no right and no business trying to force a player to do anything. And the very concept of a game "filtering players out" is elitist and toxic, yeah good luck growing your playerbase like that lol

This is a shallow and obvious lie, and comments like these are the toxic ones. If any of this were remotely true, you would not be playing any video games, you would have left PoE long ago, you would not be posting on these forums, you would be a very different person. If you truly believe even 1/4 of what you just wrote, if this is how you view things that OTHERS control, own, create, and share with you, you wouldn't be able to function in society on or offline.
A game exists in the form the developers wanted it to be in. It wasn't designed BY you, or specifically FOR you. It is YOUR job/right/role to learn to play the game provided to you. It is NOT your right/job/role as a player of someone else's game to constantly complain about it. It is your right to NOT play a game you aren't enjoying, there are thousands of others that might fit exactly what you want.

You want anything you said above to actually have ANY real meaning? Develop your own game. Only then is it "my choice alone how I want to enjoy a game, the game has no right and no business trying to force a player to do anything."

Also regarding "good luck growing your playerbase"......that ship has sailed. They don't need luck; their design has already succeeded. Even you, with all your rage at the most basic aspects of the game....are still here, and you continue coming back time and time again. Have a little self-reflection here.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

Cuz if its not deleted then I will keep quitting early every league.

Genuine question: how in your mind is this any kind of threat? Unless you're continuously supporting the game by purchasing additional MTX every day that you spend playing, or you're some kind of streamer/content creator/etc who is providing this game with free promotion, GGG loses money every day that you play a league.

From a purely financial point of view, their best case scenario is that you play the absolute minimum number of hours required to bring you back every 4 months.

I don't think I've ever seen someone post quite this much without establishing a single cogent argument before.

It really is something.

---

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

Man I will never understand why people pretend like exp loss is this magical,mystical important mechanic that is core to PoE.

That's called 'moving the goalposts'.

We're not discussing whether something is the single most amazing thing in all of video game history. We are discussing whether a feature is a net positive or a net negative. You're not going to pull a fast one on the CMs & devs with that old slight of hand, I'm sorry to tell you.

But while we're talking about hypotheticals, how about """we""" respond to what people actually say, instead of engaging in a neverending game of constructing and knocking down strawman arguments?

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

Why don't we just make the whole game hardcore then? And make it void your whole stash when you die too, we wouldn't want you to have too much progression now would we?

Because neither of these things are even remotely similar to the subject of this conversation.

The majority of game designers worldwide would consider a level up to be progression, and XP towards the next level as not being progression. So the XP loss on death mechanic delays progression, but it doesn't turn the game into some kind of rogue-like à la deleting characters or stashes.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

Let's put durability on items too, make 1 random piece of gear break when you die.

Could make for an interesting challenge mode or gauntlet event.

Not in love with the idea, but I don't hate it either.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

I love how people defending exp loss are like "you will never understand the benefits of it and how it would affect the game if its removed" and then proceed to explain none of it.

I do hate to bring up infidelity - but it seems like you and the truth might be seeing other people?

Because I cannot remember even a single person behaving in a manner even vaguely similar to what you describe. But there are innumerable counterexamples of explanations.

If you dislike it when people make unsubstantiated claims, you are really going to hate the guy who at one point turned and around and said "I know I'm right. Don't gotta prove anything to anyone." Hmm, I can't remember. Who was that again?

I made a claim, so I'll bring the receipts - here are some quick paraphrases of & links to explanations;

• In Post 5 I made the point that players often argue for changes to games that would directly result in them spending less time playing those games (which typically harms the revenue of the developers of said games).
• In Post 23 FalkenRaiding showed that the XP penalty is part of a greater whole - namely, that the game tries to give you ways of customising your experience to decide how far along the 'more risk, more reward' scale you want to go.
• In Post 24 Pashid demonstrated that content being challenging helps to separate stronger builds from weaker ones - something you appear to have later referred to as separating some people playing the game from others, which is a notable deviation from what they had actually said. One imagines this was down to carelessness rather than a desire to actively misrepresent someone's position.
• In Post 28 ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate brought up just how long the game has had XP loss on death as part of its DNA - and even raised the prospect of it potentially needing to be updated due to the massive changes the game has seen in that time.
• In Post 30 Snooke addressed you with the point that the game having risk increases the sense of accomplishment one feels when they triumph over that risk. They also asked why how they feel matters less than how you feel - a question you appear to have ignored.
• In Post 37 cowmoo275 raised something very important, which has really gone underdiscussed in this thread and which I am embarrassed at not havingg brought up myself. There is such a thing as destroying a game. While people often meme on Chris Wilson and The Vision™, the reality of the situation is that any business needs to ask themselves who they are creating their product for. You choose a fundamental identity for that product, and try to make it the best possible version of that product you possibly can. No game has ever succeeded by just acting on all received feedback, as that results in a confused game which doesn't attract any one segment of the playerbase because there have been so many cooks in the kitchen, each trying to work on a different recipe.
• In Post 45 VoidWhisperer42 demonstrated that XP penalties can actually reduce frustration, in that they are a way of giving someone a tap on the shoulder and saying "hey, maybe get a couple of gear upgrades or your fourth ascendancy before trying this content". Because where games don't punish failure, players can, will, and do repeatedly throw themselves into the hardest content because it has the 'best' rewards which means it is the 'right' content to be farming.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Its my choice alone how I want to enjoy a game, the game has no right and no business trying to force a player to do anything.

It's your choice which game to play. It is the deverlopers' choice how the game is designed. You have no right and no business dictating to a company what their product has to look like.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

And the very concept of a game "filtering players out" is elitist and toxic, yeah good luck growing your playerbase like that lol

This is what I referred to previously with Pashid's post. Literally nobody has actually said that.

You use of quotation marks is... innovative.

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

Eventually GGG will do something about it when enough people complain

In favour of removal (4)
---------------------------
- Toforto#2372
- BaumisMagicalWorld#0673
- StarburstSilver#4888
- billclinton48#3800


Opposed to removal (11)
----------------------------
- Sarno#0493
- Scarletsword#4354
- gladiatorpie#3317
- FalkenRaiding#1068
- Pashid#4643
- ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate#2605
- Felix44#4475
- Snooke#4557
- cowmoo275#3095
- VoidWhisperer42#5989
- withouttaboo#5622


Unclear (2)
-------------
- Exiliest#5062
- Johny_Snow#4778


Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you - the "majority" we heard about back on Page 2.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

It is NOT your right/job/role as a player of someone else's game to constantly complain about it. It is your right to NOT play a game you aren't enjoying, there are thousands of others that might fit exactly what you want.

You want anything you said above to actually have ANY real meaning? Develop your own game. Only then is it "my choice alone how I want to enjoy a game, the game has no right and no business trying to force a player to do anything."

That's literally what feedback is though. Players complain about thing, devs fix it. And I will keep giving my feedback about exp loss being bad and pointless, because it is. That's a fact.

A mechanic being hated by so many people isn't a sign of its "success", its a sign that it should never have existed. Games should not be so against the player that they actively set them back in progression. That should be optional, a choice that the player makes. If you enjoy losing hours of progress for no reason, go ahead and choose it just like how Hardcore is a choice. But don't force everyone else to also play the game like that. That is pointless and bad.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

You want anything you said above to actually have ANY real meaning? Develop your own game. Only then is it "my choice alone how I want to enjoy a game, the game has no right and no business trying to force a player to do anything."

And as soon as there are open-source tools that allow people to create any game they want, in an easy free way then I won't be the only one making their perfect dream game kek. That time will come eventually don't worry.

Until then, the fact remains that players are the ones who decide how to interact(or not) with a game. And if a game isn't fun, I don't play it and go do something that is fun.

Why would I ever deal with a game that steals away the player's hours of time investment and completely disrespects their time for literally no reason? That makes no sense. I get the free mtx and peace out every league, until the game improves.

"

Sarno#0493 wrote:

I don't think I've ever seen someone post quite this much without establishing a single cogent argument before.

It really is something.

It's really not that complicated and it doesn't need to be.

Exp loss bad. Remove bad thing that feels bad from game. Game becomes more fun. Free win for the developers.

That's it. And its kind of pointless even counting numbers in a forum that probably half the playerbase doesn't even know exists. The only real numbers can come from an in-game poll, which this game does not do. A lot of the players that hate exp loss and quit the game over it aren't in these forums, they quit and are not coming back.

"

Toforto#2372 wrote:

The only real numbers can come from an in-game poll, which this game does not do. A lot of the players that hate exp loss and quit the game over it aren't in these forums, they quit and are not coming back.

I am more than happy to accept your point regarding forum participation.

With that said - there are other numbers;

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Sarno#0493 wrote:

• Steam Charts: Last Epoch
• Steam Charts: Path of Exile

According to Steam Charts, the phenomenon where players quit the game and do not come back happens to some games (e.g. Last Epoch; no XP loss on death) more than some other games (e.g. Path of Exile; XP loss on death).

That's people voting with their time - and, when LE launches a paid class - voting with their wallets. Which is arguably significantly more important than what people click on in a poll.

"

Sarno#0493 wrote:

According to Steam Charts, the phenomenon where players quit the game and do not come back happens to some games (e.g. Last Epoch; no XP loss on death) more than some other games (e.g. Path of Exile; XP loss on death).

? Player numbers have nothing to do with anything here. There is no way to know why someone does or doesn't play a completely different game. Trying to make comparisons like this is just pointless.

And it doesn't change the fact that exp loss is bad and hated by a lot of people.

Death of your character, is literally saying you "improve your build/invest in defense mechanics/think of something", if you die here and there and not lose anything there's no mean in improving anything, just make character with 100 hp and blast things during 6 portals or even more with scarab.

It's not hardcore where you lose your character, players from there may laugh at you now where you complain about 10% exp loss.

Logic is simple, you die you lose. Not you die and win win win. And that part with not losing exp during boss fights is tragic last time I saw use of it, when tried to help some random player.

Because he's new and want all atlas completed by service.

I studied and learned this game for like two years, watching and reading all the sources available to improve to be good player.

This no exp loss during certain boss fights is absolute support of new players buying service from other players, they just go where they can't yet.

in PoE 95 level is very very easy, 3 more levels a little dedication and for those last two levels you need to be alive for a day or two.

You just want to be on ladder level 100 without any effort. Experience is learned, so keep learning exile.

Still GGG has stepped half way, and gave you free bosses without any loss. Services are easier, and newbies can practice at boss with their level 85 and 99% exp. Now seems path of exile in good shape (this is a joke ofc).

Just make everybody to begin with level 99 so they don't need to waste time at all.
Spoiler: Gaming is wasting of time by any means, no matter you having fun of it or not.

"

withouttaboo#5622 wrote:

Death of your character, is literally saying you "improve your build/invest in defense mechanics/think of something", if you die here and there and not lose anything there's no mean in improving anything, just make character with 100 hp and blast things during 6 portals or even more with scarab.

I dunno, the only message the game is sending me whenever I lose exp is "your time spent is meaningless, quit now". And some builds literally just can't easily upgrade their tankyness, nor would I want to play a boring,slow,tanky,zdps hardcore build in this game ever. Its exactly this kind of "forcing the player to play a certain way" thing that I don't like.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with people just wanting to play whatever build they enjoy, glass cannon or not, and use all 6 portals and just have fun with the game while passively gaining exp. Honestly I don't even know why there is a limited 6 portals to maps, should just be able to go in and out infinitely.

Nobody is negatively impacted by that, so there is no reason not to let people have that. People already run around on no-defense builds anyways, because clearspeed is the meta.

I don't even care about lvl100, it bothers me when that exp bar moves backwards. Its FOMO. Its like seeing my 70% exp and thinking "well if I didn't die 3 times today I would have leveld up."

It sucks. It feels horrible, and there is nothing I can do about it except keep complaining, cus I don't wanna be forced to play a certain build/certain way. The whole point of a game is to freely enjoy it however you want. Exp loss gets in the way of that, it just feels bad.

What's so wrong with wanting a mechanic that feels bad to be deleted? Nothing.

I don't like the bad feeling when you lose exp and think "oh I could have leveled up already". It sucks. This is why exp loss is so hated.

I don't know in how many more ways I have to explain how much exp loss sucks lol

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Toforto#2372 wrote:

[

? Player numbers have nothing to do with anything here.

YOU are the one constantly bringing up player numbers, retention, and growing or reducing the playerbase. It is almost your entire argument for removal of the exp penalty.