A little feedback about archetypes and lack thereof

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Kaozium#2036 wrote:

I’m not sure there is a direct causation between completeness and power. Certainly completeness favors power because you inherently have more options, so statistically more tools to find great synergies. But I don’t think it’s always necessary.

Well, it doesn`t have to be always necessary for correlation to appear. It`s not simple yes or no like direct causation because its strength can be statistically measured.

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Kaozium#2036 wrote:

To be honest I grow tired of people in this thread pretending we already have everything we need. It’]s dishonest. If that was the case, the devs would not add skill and support gems, yet they have added some, and we know they will add more. I am simply not convinced in the slightest by anyone saying we got all we need or want for existing weapons.

Now You are exaggerating. I`m following this topic from the beginning(except for those two dudes argument) and i don`t recall anyone even suggesting that we have everything we need. It would be really dumb given the fact we`re in the middle of ea.

My point was only that comparing to meta will always be a trap and in terms of viability there is definitely more than average(statistically, not skill-wise) player thinks.

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SalamiHaze#9389 wrote:

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Kaozium#2036 wrote:

To be honest I grow tired of people in this thread pretending we already have everything we need. It’]s dishonest. If that was the case, the devs would not add skill and support gems, yet they have added some, and we know they will add more. I am simply not convinced in the slightest by anyone saying we got all we need or want for existing weapons.

Now You are exaggerating. I`m following this topic from the beginning(except for those two dudes argument) and i don`t recall anyone even suggesting that we have everything we need. It would be really dumb given the fact we`re in the middle of ea.

My point was only that comparing to meta will always be a trap and in terms of viability there is definitely more than average(statistically, not skill-wise) player thinks.

Two people insisting on the fact my problem only arises of my inability to build the archetypes I talk about from the bricks I already have. Which means they think we already have all the bricks, which, as you say, is a really dumb assertion.
The point you just made is very fair and is not mutually exclusive with mine :) it’s an addition to the discussion and those are welcome.

I think 2 suffers from them trying to "make everything possible" but not including baselines for very basic archetypes like minions or something as simple as "the melee class".Really the only one in the game that falls into a generic role is Warbringer with totems with the rest trying desperately to fit generic niche's that add on to a build rather than just BE the build.

Like it wouldn't hurt to JUST have a character dedicated solely to an archetype with the ability to branch out,like giving Witch or Druid proper minion focused ascendencies rather then "here's some generic support tossed in now figure it out".

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

Last one, since you are being disingenuous and .... going back and editing posts ... to change what I say. Also just not paying attention to what is being typed at you, and this discussion is just becoming exhausting.

I edit the post to fix some typos or better express what I meant

Pointing that as disingenuous corroborates with what i said before about how extreme you see this thing, to you this seems like a matter of life and death..

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

So there was no misunderstanding it just seems you want an argument on the internet rather than bringing anything constructive to the discussion.

Projection? Because you literally didn't bring anything constructive to the discussion. When i ask you why splash would destroy the game you literally never articulated your opinion in a reasonable and logical way.

To you that's it's an immutable change and there's no going back, that's literally your whole argument...

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

Case in point:

You literally implied that i wanted splash as a support gem, i proved this 3x already, here's the proof once again:

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

Asking for generic melee splash support would be power creep. You're just nulifying items now because you want a support.

When i ask you to explain in why splash would break the game you say this:

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

By me several times, either pay attention and read what is posted directly at you or dont reply to me. As this is just weird. You are selectively not reading what you are asking for several posts later.

You don't have a logical and reasonable reason behind your opinion, and that's the problem, you don't want to engage in the discussion, you want to have the final saying and come out on top.

But it's fine, after everything you said i changed my mind and i recognize that i'm completely wrong about everything and you're right.

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I won't respond to everything else because this is insanity, and if we keep this up we'll probably break some rule and get suspended lol.

I keep on saying this but to me splash represents 10% of what melee needs to compete with ranged.

So if i keep engaging in this argument, i might start believing that splash is either the ultimate salvation or the ultimate downfall of poe 2. And that would go against of what i keep saying. I don’t believe in dramatic dichotomies after all.

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Mashgesture#2912 wrote:

Id like to see them. Cause your ninja is currently blank

Is that poe ninja..? Jesus Christ this is literally insanity.. Dude went on a 3rd party site and tried to search for my profile...

How to explain that only a minority of players interact with that site? Especially to someone with extremist tendencies..

I would love to prove that i play poe 2 since closed beta but that goes against the NDA so, i'm sorry.

I did receive 1 or 2 Settlers of Kalguur Mystery Box for participating in the beta though, so that was cool.

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Vyend#2601 wrote:

post

Yea I mean you jsut arent reading what is posted at you.


ATP I really want to see these characters you claim to have made that are melee.

As from what I can tell based on the conversation and post history im talking to a player that is at a very basal level in POE2, maybe not even play it at all with the blank ninja and private going on.

Possibly a quest level player which is common on the forums and barely tried something, and is now asking for radical changes.


For those of us, me, who actually play and engage with true melee, we dont need any handouts. Splash doesnt need to be inherent to any melee skill in this game. You simply just need to build correctly.

Feel free to prove me wrong though with your characters you spoke of.

You brought them up after all.

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Megami83Tensei#9384 wrote:

I think 2 suffers from them trying to "make everything possible" but not including baselines for very basic archetypes like minions or something as simple as "the melee class".Really the only one in the game that falls into a generic role is Warbringer with totems with the rest trying desperately to fit generic niche's that add on to a build rather than just BE the build.

Like it wouldn't hurt to JUST have a character dedicated solely to an archetype with the ability to branch out,like giving Witch or Druid proper minion focused ascendencies rather then "here's some generic support tossed in now figure it out".

Yep I share this perspective.

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Azimuthus#1135 wrote:

Nah, melee splash is lame.

The whole point of melee is that weapon hit lands exactly where it lands.

To compete with non-melee the game must just offer good clearing movesets, even if they are far from realistic. Barb WW in Diablo 2 is a good example. Fresh Warlock Cleave skill in D2R is a good example too. There could be more like these, combined with dashes, side hits or whatever.

A good solution to this interaction has been around forever. Hitbox collision.

You simply give the weapons hitboxes and let the engine take care of the rest. If the weapon collision says you hit more than one enemy then you deal damage to more than one enemy.

Other games have various methods of dealing with high reach weapons (2-handers) vs low reach (dagger) but in PoE2 I don't think it's even needed. The weapon is your class and the skills are restricted to that weapon. So they can just tailor it as needed.

This method also helps with "Strike" vs "Slam" deviation in performance. Slams hit in an AoE once per attack while Strike his anything your weapon collides with. Far more elegant than "Splash Damage".