The aspect that spoils the impression of the game the most. (updated)

Hello everyone.

It's been a week of league play. I've already tried three builds. And a realization has dawned on me.
The core aspect of the game is ruined. I don't really see anyone talking about it. People complain about all sorts of little things, while one of the most important aspects of the game has deteriorated. I used to be somewhat neutral about this and thought it wasn't necessary to be a metaslave. After all, you can really take almost any skill and assignment and play through the main part of the game with it. Overcoming difficulties is fun. Creating new builds through new interactions is fun. BUT. Realizing that all these builds will never be able to compare to broken interactions without any balance is no fun. Not even half.

The game has been getting more difficult for several years now, to provide at least some challenge for ultra-optimized "golden boy" builds. So where should we put the ability to play ARPGs? Create your own build? Where is that? And it's cursed. Because without offscreen clearing, you'll be killed by offscreen. Being a glass-cannon is beneficial 99% of the time, because it allows you to progress through content much faster, farm, and use the resources you gain to start building your defense. In the early game, there's no chance of adequate development; all the juice is in T16. And of course, there's a development ceiling, where a standard build, trying to balance between offense and defense, can't become stronger in min-max than the mid-range version of meta builds.

And nothing is being done about it. And I'm not even talking about nerfs. Let there be builds for casuals, a.k.a "I upload a build to PoB, it will complete all the content for me." So be it. It's fun for some players, let them have fun. But please. Let the players who fell in love with PoE 7+ years ago for its build-making possibilities and freedom of play have fun? Can we finally see adequate buffs/reworks for dead/old archetypes that can't compete with the modern endgame? Can we see more tools for improving builds? If you've allowed such strong builds to exist for so many years, it means you're happy with the current level of player power. So let other builds be played at the same level.

This is a disaster. Why can only stackers afford to play the same build the entire league, upgrading items to better ones? Why are so many properties and stats ridiculously weak if you don't stack them? And why are there no alternatives that don't require stacking?

I find the current situation very sad, where build development revolves not around using interesting mechanics, but exclusively around "getting more AoE, more damage, and more XP." And in this race for efficiency, diversity is lost. The main thing is that the numbers are good, because the player's numbers trump the monsters' numbers, and then you can play the game. After all, playing any other way is a punishment and a constant reminder, "You could have played 10 times more efficiently and dont die every 3 min." And it's not even about the economy; playing SSF is even worse if you don't use a ready-made, ultra-optimized build for resource farming.

Where's the soul? Perhaps nostalgia is embellishing the memories, but I miss the days when I stood in High Gate, listening to that beautiful music, and thinking about what build I'd build next, knowing I'd be able to play it and enjoy it, because I wouldn't be punished by an Overtune Rare monster, or an Ultrajuice inaccessible farm, or complicated, outdated crafting (when was the last time anyone used influence items for anything other than pseudo-links and explosions?)

Please define your final vision for the game. Do you want it to be challenging and demanding, or is it a casual stroll on a build that's already three years old and, even after nerfs, still stronger than others?
I had high hopes for PoE 2, thinking that with the new balance, you could pick any build and be happy. But no, the game has dead drops on RoA and Comet cooks that completely ignore the entire game design of slowness and tacticality. And Glass Cannons are still win-win, because dead enemies don't deal damage and don't need to be dodged.

Please decide. In the current state of the game, it would be easier to buff the entire off-meta and add buffs to unpopular mechanics. Slowing down the entire game would be a waste of time (unless it's PoE 2, where it seems normal, especially when more content is added that doesn't rely on clear speed).

It's not just the numbers in skill. Everything needs to be improved. AoE, speed. Let the power in Acts remain the same, but let there be accessible endgame progression. More leveling bonuses, more AoE sources. The strong will remain strong, the weak will become good.

Upd.

Once I picked up a tried-and-true build, the whole game became a joke. I was able to play through all the content again without any problems and reach a 400+ div budget. And yet, there's still room for improvement.

So, while some builds are considered "going uphill or around it," others are simply "stepping over it."
This gets worse with each league, where a bunch of always-great Crit Elemental builds are added, and ultimately, there's practically nothing for builds that haven't gotten any love for years, only nerfs (removing awakened gems, making content more difficult).

The end result is a very disappointing picture. Players simply don't want to play with a lot of builds because they're significantly weaker than others. They don't want to farm many mechanics because they're less profitable than others. And, it would seem, let them do whatever they want. But this isn't a philosophical question. Even if you live in ignorance, unaware of the meta and that someone is farming better than you, you still find yourself in a situation where the game punishes you for making the wrong choice. After all, making the wrong choice means you'll literally be playing in Hard Mode, with limited progression potential. Why does the game even have interesting mechanics that have outdated designs that limit their development potential? Meanwhile, it's more profitable to use completely uninteresting mechanics that have been the most effective for years, for no apparent reason. And even when they're already strong, they continue to receive buffs.

I recently saw a discussion about how PoE 1 is unfriendly to new players because of its difficulty. The difficulty lies solely in the entry barrier; the rest is compensated for, mind you, by the right build. And a good analogy came to mind.
To ride a motorcycle, you need to understand how to approach it. You need to be in sufficient physical condition to maintain it. You need to learn how to start the engine, and at least know how to refuel it, and perform minimal maintenance. Next, you need to learn how to control it, shift gears, and maneuver. Ultimately, it takes at least several months to become confident using this mode of transport. Eventually, you'll find yourself following traffic rules and speed limits, and all is well. Sometimes you can accelerate on a straight line, which demonstrates a potential new limit of power (in the game, this is represented by Acceleration Shrine). At some point, this becomes insufficient, and you want to ride at this speed more often, because going fast is more fun and efficient. It's worth noting that the choice of motorcycle type significantly affects your ability to accelerate. A regular scooter won't be able to handle an enduro track, while an enduro bike can easily serve as transportation in any other environment. A super-powerful motorcycle can go 30 km/h, while the same poor scooter won't exceed 120 km/h. Does this make a scooter a bad vehicle? No, it's good in its niche. But in poe 1, there's no niche for slow, weak builds without significant upgrade potential. Modern super-builds have become the reason why the game has become more difficult, despite the fact that playing with these builds is becoming easier every year. And the "better to kill everyone before they kill you" mentality still persists. That is, if a build lacks Glass Cannon potential, or doesn't have the potential to combine gigantic damage with gigantic defense, then such a build is inherently a loser.

Yes, there are non-meta builds that can complete the game; there are quite a few of them. But simply completing content for the sake of it isn't the point of the game. The point is to develop a character to complete that content. If a build can't evolve, even if it utilizes all the generally correct decisions, then it's a gross design flaw in the mechanics embedded within it. If one archetype has 10 types of damage multipliers that allow it to reach hundreds of millions of damage, while another archetype only has 5 types of damage multipliers that will not allow it to overcome even 10 million damage (taking into account maintaining adequate defense, not a glass cannon in pob), then this is clearly a problem that needs to be solved.

I really hope Octavian can get around to adding more Exceptional Gems. He also figures out how to modernize the abilities from 2013, which currently can't compete with KB.

If you need ideas, there are plenty. Many solutions already exist in PoE 2, or are readily available, though they may require some work with programmers. I can share my ideas. Just write to me.

The idea was supposed to be encouraging players make multiple builds that fill certain niches the others cannot. You want to do mapping? Make a fast moving screen clear build. Bossing? Make a slow single-target build.

In theory, it encourages build diversity and longevity by making multiple characters.

In practice, it encourages the players to either find a build that can do everything even if poorly, or use vast sums of currency to brute force through the limitations in place so that you can do all content trivially. This results in most builds not being worth consideration at all (when was the last time Scorching Ray was used as its own main skill?), and some farming strats not being worth the effort due to not pumping out lots of currency in short order.

I'm starting to understand why PoE2 came to be. It was GGG admitting that whatever they tried to do with PoE1 failed and wanted to start with a blank slate.

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

The idea was supposed to be encouraging players make multiple builds that fill certain niches the others cannot. You want to do mapping? Make a fast moving screen clear build. Bossing? Make a slow single-target build.

In theory, it encourages build diversity and longevity by making multiple characters.

In practice, it encourages the players to either find a build that can do everything even if poorly, or use vast sums of currency to brute force through the limitations in place so that you can do all content trivially. This results in most builds not being worth consideration at all (when was the last time Scorching Ray was used as its own main skill?), and some farming strats not being worth the effort due to not pumping out lots of currency in short order.

I'm starting to understand why PoE2 came to be. It was GGG admitting that whatever they tried to do with PoE1 failed and wanted to start with a blank slate.

That's a good point.
I understand the possible ideas of the developers, and I find many of them interesting. Their attempts to add depth to the game that would make the players think. Unfortunately, a stratum of players does not want to think in principle, they only need cheap dopamine, and that they would need to face any difficulties as little as possible.
As a result, we have a situation where it has become impossible to just play. Rare exceptions warm the soul, even if they are few.

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Pizzarugi#6258 wrote:

I'm starting to understand why PoE2 came to be. It was GGG admitting that whatever they tried to do with PoE1 failed and wanted to start with a blank slate.

Given how horrible and slow poe2 campaign is, I won't say it's 'encouraging players make multiple builds'.
Also poe2 literally forces you to have both boss kill and clear in same character because every map has both.

Poe1 has it better since map bosses are easy and uber bosses are in the special instances. Poe2 has strong bosses on maps.

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moonretealoud#1487 wrote:

BUT. Realizing that all these builds will never be able to compare to broken interactions without any balance is no fun. Not even half.

I mean....this isn't true, and its also a self-imposed lose-lose scenario that doesn't even actually exist.

There is no reason to compare builds in the way you appear to be doing: all that matters is whether the build YOU choose to create can do the content YOU want it to do. And like 90% or more of competent builds accomplish this. Whether they do it in 4 minutes or 20 seconds is irrelevant.


If you are constantly approaching the game with the mentality of "if I were strength-stacking mirror gear, I would be doing 10x damage....man this sucks", then that is entirely a YOU problem that you need to solve.



For me personally, every build I make is its own experience. There exists no point in the game, ever, where I would compare the way my flicker strike build feels to play, against my righteous fire build, against my SRS build, against my cyclone shockwave build, against my CoCS or CWC build, etc. And if I'm truly going for an exploratory "new" build altogether, this is even more true.


As with all things in life, there will ALWAYS be someone or something better than you. If you dwell in that headspace, that isn't necessarily a problem with the rest of the world.....it's your own problem to deal with. This could also be a sign that you are simply burned out and need to take a break.

Since 1.0, and possibly even the beta, there have ALWAYS been broken interactions that made other options look like crap if you were to compare them. I abused OG EK and CoCS to mow down Dominus and Piety in 5 seconds for the longest time. But that NEVER ever became the baseline I would compare everything else I did to. I KNEW it was broken and enjoyed that feeling sometimes. It has always been up to you to decide whether you like the game itself, or you ONLY like god mode. Much like older games where you could choose to input a cheat and have an easier time.....or you could, you know, not do that. The existence of those cheats doesn't at all detract from the fun of the game without the cheats: its a choice.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"

moonretealoud#1487 wrote:

BUT. Realizing that all these builds will never be able to compare to broken interactions without any balance is no fun. Not even half.

I mean....this isn't true, and its also a self-imposed lose-lose scenario that doesn't even actually exist.

There is no reason to compare builds in the way you appear to be doing: all that matters is whether the build YOU choose to create can do the content YOU want it to do. And like 90% or more of competent builds accomplish this. Whether they do it in 4 minutes or 20 seconds is irrelevant.


If you are constantly approaching the game with the mentality of "if I were strength-stacking mirror gear, I would be doing 10x damage....man this sucks", then that is entirely a YOU problem that you need to solve.



For me personally, every build I make is its own experience. There exists no point in the game, ever, where I would compare the way my flicker strike build feels to play, against my righteous fire build, against my SRS build, against my cyclone shockwave build, against my CoCS or CWC build, etc. And if I'm truly going for an exploratory "new" build altogether, this is even more true.


As with all things in life, there will ALWAYS be someone or something better than you. If you dwell in that headspace, that isn't necessarily a problem with the rest of the world.....it's your own problem to deal with. This could also be a sign that you are simply burned out and need to take a break.

Since 1.0, and possibly even the beta, there have ALWAYS been broken interactions that made other options look like crap if you were to compare them. I abused OG EK and CoCS to mow down Dominus and Piety in 5 seconds for the longest time. But that NEVER ever became the baseline I would compare everything else I did to. I KNEW it was broken and enjoyed that feeling sometimes. It has always been up to you to decide whether you like the game itself, or you ONLY like god mode. Much like older games where you could choose to input a cheat and have an easier time.....or you could, you know, not do that. The existence of those cheats doesn't at all detract from the fun of the game without the cheats: its a choice.

I agree that such a mindset is destructive. I don't strive to be a god in every game in every situation. I liked PoE for its progression, for the fact that from an exile on the beach, you GRADUALLY become someone stronger, overcoming difficulties with your skills. And I think it's right that the difficulties for one build shouldn't be 100 times greater than for another just because it hasn't been upgraded in a while.

I love build-making, but in recent years, it's become increasingly difficult to come up with something interesting that doesn't fit into the meta niche and isn't a useless product. Inevitably, you have to use popular, strong mechanics to achieve adequate results that will allow you to play a character from zero to hero, without glass cannon.

You can play pseudo-SSF, regardless of what others are playing. But this won't fix the broken economy that revolves around meta players. Some items are worth zero, others are worth hundreds of Divines. This also greatly limits build development, as farming that much currency requires a significant investment of time, and completing content in 4 minutes instead of 20 seconds is already a significant factor.

Cheats are a player's choice. They're unfair, a way to ignore game design. I want to see game design, not the kind created by those who "use cheats," but the way it was before, for everyone.

The major nerf in the Expedition league was a step toward increasing the game's difficulty, which was intended to appeal to the target audience, since the essence of the game is overcoming difficulty. But we must understand that difficulty should be surmountable by the player, not by choosing a broken build that remains unfixed for several leagues (after all, ultra-casual no-life MFs will flood the internet with vitriol).

If a build can't evolve after at least completing the yellow maps, it's more likely a balance issue than a build design flaw. Especially if the build utilizes everything as intended, but the mechanics, items, and skills remain stuck in 2015. If a global nerf of everything is necessary to curb player power, then that's poor balance, because the strong remain strong, the weak remain weak, and the average also become weak. I see no point in arguing with this fact. Accepting the "new reality" where you either have to play ruthless or adopt some streamer's meta build is an extremely poor way to play.

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moonretealoud#1487 wrote:

I love build-making, but in recent years, it's become increasingly difficult to come up with something interesting that doesn't fit into the meta niche and isn't a useless product. Inevitably, you have to use popular, strong mechanics to achieve adequate results that will allow you to play a character from zero to hero, without glass cannon.

I have found the exact opposite to be true, across nearly everything you said: nowadays there are so many powerful items, so many skills, so many mods, so many ascendancy combos, that it has never been easier to make "niche" builds work and work extremely well. And yes, that means pushing the builds into t17s/nightmares/memory maps or juiced endgame content, and uber farming.

I don't mean to cast judgment without warrant, but from how you describe the game situation it seems like you are somewhat "stuck" in the things you know the best and aren't allowing yourself the opportunity to explore new things before falling back into old tactics. Again, mostly a self-imposed limiter rather than a true game issue. For example, how many of the new bloodlines have you explored in combination with the other ascendancies? That alone is only 1 league old and can't possibly be stale when it comes to build creation. Plus, many of these combinations require the usage of items and combos that have almost never seen usage prior to bloodline release.


My followup question to your OP regarding comments against stacking mods for upgrading your character: how else would a character receive continuous improvements to its absolute apex? In any arpg? No matter what the situation or build....in order to min/max it you are ultimately going to be focusing on the 1 or 2 things that it would specialize in. It would be impossible for it to work any other way, simply because that is how math works and the entire game is math. There is no possible way to upgrade or gain "power", whether its offensive or defensive, unless the numbers go up. And numbers go up when you put more of them together. It is mathematically impossible (without the very gimmicks you don't like) to "spread out" these mods and receive a similar result.


As for this comment:
"I want to see game design, not the kind created by those who "use cheats," but the way it was before, for everyone."

This has simultaneously always been true, and never true of PoE, since the beta. Changes GGG makes have always been "for everyone", and have moved the game in the same direction for every single player regardless of build choice and creation. But at the same time, there is and always will be a "meta". If you are claiming it was somehow "different" in the past.....you are misremembering the past. Or your experience as a player has changed. Without fail, there was always a small handful of skills or powerful interactions that outclassed everything else, which essentially amounted to approaching the game with cheats on. And similarly, GGG has ALWAYS nerfed certain builds of this type completely out of existence later.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

**last answer**

I understand what you're saying, and I see that you're a smart person. I agree that a lot of new things have emerged that can be used in new ways. This really expands the range of ideas. I don't know if I'll be able to create even one new build in this new world that can develop from scratch to a hero without being a glass-cannon, but also without being limited to 2kk DPS in mirror tier gear because it doesn't use stacking.
It's sad that some old builds and their ideas remain in a deplorable state even with new tools. It's sad that some build ideas are hidden behind paywalls due to the huge demand for the item among those who are already strong (for example, Original Sin). It's sad that, even with all the new Ascendancy, some ideas still remain outdated. They can be used to complete acts and even complete the atlas. And apparently, this basic minimum indicates that there is no need to improve anything.
I think something can be done, but other things take priority.

"The game has been getting more difficult for several years now, to provide at least some challenge for ultra-optimized "golden boy" builds."

On the money, all build diversity problems stem from this.